Oerlis:Allahabad

Prayagraj = namme

It artikel moat ferhúzje. Alle relevante websides (Google, Britannica ...) brûke al de nije (histoaryske, orizjinele) namme. De befolking fan Prayagraj bestiet ek fral út Hindoes. In protte oare Wikipedias hawwe it al feroare. --Tecumseh*1301 (oerlis) 4 jun 2020, 08.04 (CEST)

Bin ik it mei iens. Drewes (oerlis) 4 jun 2020, 17.43 (CEST)

Ikke net. Ik bin net fan doel om my te mingen yn 'e plaknammestriid yn Yndia, hoewol't it my taliket dat it hjoeddeistige BJP-regear der in ôfkarrenswurdige polityk op nei hâldt fan it marginalisearjen en demonisearjen fan 'e islamityske minderheid yn it lân. Ik fyn ek dat je amper mear sprekke kinne fan in 'oarspronklike namme' as it giet om in namme dy't al sa lang yn ûnbrûk is. Lêzers fan 'e Fryske Wikipedy moatte goed foar it ferstân hawwe dat it hjir net giet om in plaknammestriid sa't dy yn Fryslân bestiet, oer plaknammen yn ferskillende talen dy't altyd njonkeninoar brûkt binne, mar om nammefoarmen yn ien en deselde taal dy't konnotaasjes mei ferskillende godstsjinsten hawwe.

Hjirboppe wurdt troch Tecumseh*1301 steld dat alle relevante websiden de namme "Prayagraj brûke. Blykber is de Ingelske Wikipedia gjin relevante webside, want dêr hâlde se de namme Allahabad oan. Ik haw ris op Wikidata oan it turven west. Fan 'e 66 Wikipedyen dêr't ik de namme fan it artikel oer dizze stêd lêze of ûntsiferje kin, brûke 23 de namme Prayagraj en 43 de namme Allahabad. Ik leau dêrom net dat der foar ús driuwend ferlet is fan it omneamen fan dizze side. Dêrby komt dat de stêd ek folle bekender is ûnder de namme Allahabad. Ieneach fan 'e Esk (oerlis) 4 jun 2020, 17.55 (CEST)

Goed heite, googleje wy oer in jier of sa nochris en sjogge wy wol oft de offisjele namme al as net húsriem wurden is. Drewes (oerlis) 4 jun 2020, 18.06 (CEST)

Goeie, Ik tink dat ideology gjin plak hat op Wikipedia. Dat jo it belied fan 'e hearskjende regearing fan Yndia net leuk fine, erkend troch allegear as wettich, is gjin reden om oan jo besluten te twifeljen. Hoefolle regearingen hâlde jo net fan? Saûdy-Araabje, Iran, Trumps Amearika .. de tiid fan it kommunisme? Königsberg wurdt lykwols net langer Kaliningrad neamd, hoe komt dat foar? Of wat oer de namme feroarings yn Yndia yn 'e jierren '90. Binne jo in foardiel dat Chennai noch Madras hjit? D'r binne safolle foarbylden. Ingelske Wikipedia is gjin wichtige boarne lykas Google of Britannica, hoe sit it mei de Frânske, Dútske, Italjaanske of Portugeeske Wikipedia? Dêr hjit de yngong al Prayagraj, om't it korrekt is. Yn it begjin is de âlde namme altyd faker dan de nije namme, dat is gjin argumint, dan soene der noait feroaringen wêze. Neist, hoe faak hawwe jo de ôfrûne 2 jier wat oer Allahabad yn it Frysk lêzen? Jo jouwe foar as jo de heule tiid lêze oer Allahabad yn Frysk nijs. --Tecumseh*1301 (oerlis) 6 jun 2020, 12.02 (CEST)

Ek goeie. Jo binne it net iens mei my dat it artikel oer Allahabad foarearst syn âlde namme wol hâlde kin, dat helje ik út 'e tekst hjirboppe. Foar de rest kin ik der net folle út wiiswurde. Miskien kinne jo tenei jo boadskip better yn it Ingelsk? skriuwe, as in fertaalprogramma te brûken dat de tekst hjirboppe dúdlik alhiel de fernieling yn holpen hat. As wjerwurd wol ik noch wol sizze dat de Fryske Wikipedy net bûn is oan wat bûtenlânske regearings beslute. Wy hawwe in goed jier lyn ris in stimming ûnder de meidoggers holden oer de plaknammen dy't wy hjir brûke, en dêr is ûnder mear út kommen dat de Fryske Wikipedy trochgiet mei it brûken fan nammen as Bombay, Madras en Kalkutta, om't dat no ienris de bekende, ynboargere nammen binne. Neffens my past Allahabad moai yn dat rychje thús. As yn it artikel dúdlik oanjûn wurdt dat dy namme no net mear offisjeel is en wat de offisjele namme dan wol is, is soks gjin inkeld probleem. Ieneach fan 'e Esk (oerlis) 6 jun 2020, 21.43 (CEST)

Thanks a lot, English is easier for me, but at least I tried in Frisian. Well, Madras (Chennai) I didn't find in this Wikipedia and Kalkutta (which is now pronounced Kolkata) and Bombay (which is now pronounced Mumbai) differ a lot in many aspects from the issue with Prayagraj, because it is really, like we said, about pronounciation Kolkata, Kalkutta, well alright, in many languages cities are written differently. Like München which becomes Munich ir Braunschweig which becomes Brunswick in English. So, I totally get why you decided to keep the old names. But Prayagraj is a totally different name. And it actually is the original name, only to be changed while under occupation. So the name change is like correcting a mistake. Tecumseh*1301 (oerlis) 8 jun 2020, 21.10 (CEST)

I appreciate you trying to talk to us in our own language, but the sad reality is that translation software for small languages like ours doesn't really offer good results (yet). You are correct that we don't have an article about Madras yet, although we did take into consideration which name we would prefer to use for that city when we had a community discussion last year about indigenous topnyms vs. Frisian/'frisified' ones. For instance, for New Delhi the form Nij-Delly (which is a translation of 'new' + a phonetic Frisian spelling of 'Delhi') was used here, but we decided not to do that anymore en just use 'New Delhi' from now on. Anyway, back to Allahabad/Prayagraj. I also understand why you have the opinion you have, and I have nothing against the name Prayagraj as such. However, it seems to me the city is still much more well-known under it's old name, and I don't agree with you that the English Wikipedia is not a "relevant" or "important" website. In fact, I would me much more open to changing te name if it was used on the English Wikipedia, which in my view is generally one of the first web sources to change names (even when it is not needed, like with Eswatini/Swaziland, which was completely unnecessary if you ask me). Ieneach fan 'e Esk (oerlis) 8 jun 2020, 21.41 (CEST)

Why only to orientate on the English Wikipedia? What about French, German, Italian Wikipedias. Or Belarussian Wikipedia, which astonishingly has a big article on Prayagraj, who would have thought that.. and there it is called Prayagraj as it should, with a little changing in the spelling to fit Belarussian pronounciation, because the Hindi j in the end is pronounced j like in „Jeans“. You can also use the German, French, Italian, Portuguese Wikipedia and so on. In almost all Wikipedias in Europe, the entry is already called Prayagraj. So when English Wikipedia is alone (mostly because of the doing of an openly Anti-Indian writer and activist called Kashmiri) amongst Wikipedias, which call the City Prayagraj, then it is not necessary to Stick to the old name. Prayagraj doesn't play such an important role in the Media. There wont be mentioning for a long time. So let's Show the People of Prayagraj, that we respect their decision and Religion and make the name change on Frisian Wikipedia. Tecumseh*1301 (oerlis) 9 jun 2020, 17.43 (CEST)

Okay, a couple of things. Why look at the English Wikipedia? Well, because the English Wikipedia is the largest Wikipedia by far en also has the largest number of edits and the largest number of users (by very far), see here. One would think that with so many people engaged in the project they would reach a considered opinion.

What they do on de:, fr:, it: and pt: is their business. I'm not saying the Frisian Wikipedia will do exactly what the English Wikipedia does, but it is an important source, more so than other Wikipedias, in my view. Note, by the way, that among Wikipedias the "Prayagraj"-using ones are still a minority of 43 to 23 by my count on June 4th, though I admit that excludes Wikipedias from the Indian subcontinent because I can't read Devanagari and related scripts. Look, I'm not against the name Prayagraj, but the city is much better known as Allahabad. It seems best to me to keep using Allahabad for now en and look in a year or two how the situation has developed, just as Drewes said above.

This has nothing to do with respecting the people of Allahabad/Prayagraj. (And I seriously doubt whether they care very much what the Frisian Wikipedia does.) As I understand it, the renaming of Allahabad to Prayagraj was a pet project of the BJP and had failed multiple times before it was forced through eventually in 2018. That shows it was a very controversial move. For all I know the city will be renamed Allahabad as soon as the Congress Party regains power.

Also, I read up on the discussion about this name-change on the English Wikipedia, and I don't think you are being very fair to Kashmiri. He obviously is not the only one there who thinks it is better to keep the name Allahabad, or he would have been outvoted long ago. Giving the discussion there a quick glance-over confirms that. I don't know why you call him "openly anti-Asian", which is a eufemism for "racist" if I understand correctly. I can't find anything on the Allahabad talk page or his own talk page to substantiate that claim. I do see you're trying to use my Eswatini/Swaziland argument in the discussion there. Good luck with that. Ieneach fan 'e Esk (oerlis) 9 jun 2020, 20.48 (CEST)

Hi User:Tecumseh1301, it's obvious this matter is important to you and that for the past couple of months you have been, and are, highly involved in an ongoing cross wiki campaign to get all Wikipedia Allahabad articles renamed to Prayagraj (link). By lack of convincing arguments however, to me that looks like an example of trying to right a great wrong. For now and on this wiki, this is just another Bangalore situation. On en:wiki, Arjayay asked you: What is your evidence that Prayagraj is now the common name in English? (link) The same question applies here: the onus to prove Prayagraj is the common name in Western Frisian is on you. This wiki is open to all convincing non-political arguments you may come up with, but until you do the chances this article will be renamed are very slim. Regards, Wutsje 10 jun 2020, 01.38 (CEST)

I beg to differ on that, dear Wutsje. I don't need to prove, that it is more common in Western Frisian, because it is so unimportant in Western Frisian media, that there won't be evidence, and you sure know that. So other reasons have to be taken into Account. And these reasons I named quite a dozen times, they are way more and comprehensive for a Name change to Prayagraj than against it and keeping the non-official name, which stems from occupation. So, the question is now, What Argument do you have against it. And yes, I am on that issue, not only because it is the official new name, but because I have something against all sorts of occupation. And such big matter, when occupators just change names of important cities is something we all should consider something we have to stand up against and at least celebrate the return of freedom for the occupated ones. Just imagining the Poles would still call their big City of Lodž still Litzmannstadt, how weird would that be. Tecumseh*1301 (oerlis) 10 jun 2020, 13.08 (CEST)

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Hello everyone,

the discussion stands still. Many Wikipedias have corrected the name again, Ukraine, Bulgarien, yesterday. And they opted for the name change, I just recommended it and there was a big discussion going on as well, it took many weeks and I didnt write that much. It is proven, that most of the people, the majority of Wikipedianer are pro the name change, even on the English Wikipedia, there were so many questions, when finally the page can be renamed correctly as Prayagraj, long before me. And long before me, big Wikipedias like French, Italian and Portuguese had already renamed it to Prayagraj. Even a Muslim Wikipedia, the Aserbaidschan Wikipedia renamed to Prayagraj and I thought, they would never allow the word Allah being overwritten or renamed. But they are fair, they keep the guidelines, they respect the decisions of the Indian government and the people and change it to Prayagraj. As of the outnumbering if arguments pro a name change than against it, I ask you, when finally this steo is taken on Frisian Wikipedia.

Nachsatz: Even on English Wikipedia on the discussion of Allahabad there are more people pro a name change than against it. Kashmiri is a native of Kashmir, which citizens somehow is in war with India, so his anti-indian doctrine is the following of this. But there is a new attemot of another Wikipedianer to ask and rename it I saw today, so we will see how that goes. But Frisian Wikipedia can correct the name change sooner. --Tecumseh*1301 (oerlis) 24 jun 2020, 20.19 (CEST)

Hi Tecumseh*1301, just so you know: there might be a slight misunderstanding on your side. On this wiki, there is no discussion about your proposal, at least not anymore. If you really do want to go on about this, like you keep on doing and doing, please go elsewhere. Thank you and regards, Wutsje 25 jun 2020, 01.19 (CEST)

Well, but the discussion was started again, or better said it never stopped. Because your „big argument“ was that in English and other Wikipedias the article is still named Allahabad. Well, it is not, even in English Wikipedia there is protest against this wrong going on, a new discussion was started by someone. Many Wikipedias concluded that the name has to Prayagraj after week long discussions. So do you really think this argument can fight against the many arguments pro a name change that I brought up? No it cannot, the article needs to be renamed and corrected. --Tecumseh*1301 (oerlis) 25 jun 2020, 13.34 (CEST)

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Hi Tecumseh*1301, with this, you have just gone too far. The page name can now only be moved by admins. Persisting in Allahabad pov pushing will get you blocked indefinitely on this wiki and may very well lead to a global lock request for disruptive editing on multiple wikis on m:SRG. Wikipedia, any wikipedia, is an encyclopedia, not a vehicle for party politics. Wutsje 27 jun 2020, 02.37 (CEST)

I will not edit the page on Frisian Wikipedia, you have my word, you have got more power since you are an Administrator. But you sure know how to use this power for unfair measures, since you ain't got no arguments. You are a real politician, who just wants his ideology being fulfilled. You are a problem to Wikipedia. I have ideology as well, I admit, I am against any sorts of oppression, so I am against the name Prayagraj having been changed under oppression and I am against some measures of the reigning BJP Party against minorities as well just so you know, but changing this cities name to Prayagraj was nothing oppressive, but correcting it. And I am against you oppressing my measures to correct that wrongdoing. If you have a little bit of fairness in you, you will one day see, how wrong you were and change the Page name to Prayagraj yourself. If you are like most people you wont admit you were wrong and stay like you are. Fair well, hope you will change soon. --Tecumseh*1301 (oerlis) 27 jun 2020, 08.52 (CEST)

I really don't understand what "the hell" your problem is, Tecumseh*1301. We have made our position in this matter quite clear, I think. If things are as you say they are, the name Prayagraj will become the norm and you will get your way eventually anyway. But don't come in here as an outsider en start telling us what to do. We are quite capable of coming to a reasoned decision on our own, thank you. You've crossed the line by trying to force the name-change of this article when we expressly told you this Wikipedia community is not ready to go along with that yet. You are acting like a spoiled child throwing a temper tantrum when it doesn't get what it wants. If you can't behave in a civilised manner, you are no longer welcome here. Ieneach fan 'e Esk (oerlis) 28 jun 2020, 00.19 (CEST)

Well, yeah, i have had my share of not behaving correctly, I admit, but the reason is quite clear and not gone yet: that you have absolutely no right to say no to the name change, you use your power to defend something that is utterly wrong. You say that Prayagraj is not mentioned in Frisian media, then please show me where Allahabad is mentioned in Frisian Media? And when I want to discuss, it is said „I don't know, if you didnt understand it but the discussion is over“ (like a mother to a Child when she has no arguments) then give me arguments, arguments that are good enough that they beat my arguments. And dont just say the „discussion is over“ because when the discussion is over, and one analyses whose arguments have more weight, then the article needs to be changed. In English media it might be true that the name Allahabad is still more common, therefore they can actually say no, because at least they got one clear Argument, but for Frisian to say „it is a no because.. we said so end of discussion“ that is not right, and that is what a spoiled child would really say. So you can go into yourself, put ideology aside, look at the arguments and tell me who has got the arguments? --Tecumseh*1301 (oerlis) 29 jun 2020, 00.26 (CEST)

That it is "utterly wrong" is your opinion. Please stop presenting your opinions as facts. Ieneach fan 'e Esk (oerlis) 29 jun 2020, 00.50 (CEST)

So how is „the name Allahabad was changed officially to Prayagraj“ or „Prayagraj is the original name“ or „Prayagraj was changed under occupation“ are opinions? Even these 3 arguments are more than enough to change the article's name, but I even wrote more.. --Tecumseh*1301 (oerlis) 29 jun 2020, 06.14 (CEST)

Prayagraj - when will you finally do the right thing?

You write that my arguments are not enough. But it is obvious that I have more arguments than you, so logically your arguments are not enough that Prayagraj Allahabad is called or do you just want to use your position of power to get your way through? And maybe you tell a friend to write something too, then there are two of you, so what, you can be a hundred, but you still have fewer arguments and you're only against it because of your personal opinion, that's not enough. Therefore the correct name Prayagraj has to be accepted.

As you are aware of, I recommend a name change toward the new and original name Prayagraj. The vast majority of Wikipedias came to the conclusion, they in fact accept the new name as they did with other cities feom India or from other countries in the past as well. Some Wikipedias were not too sure about it for sometimes reasonable, often questionable reference to the new name being used less as the old name. Questionable that is, because in the majority of cases, they argued without references, just sheer claims. That is of course due to the fact that Prayagraj Doesn't play an important role in European media, but when it does, every year when celebrating the most important Kumbh Mela Festival, Prayagraj the new name is being used all over the place, Google is using the new name, Britannica is using the new name, English Wikipedia is not using the new name, they have a reason (when other arguments are comoletely overruled), I accept that, other Wikipedias like Latvian or Frisian didn't have the reason, because you neither find the new nor the old name in their language media, so it is up to ideology.

Some have a Problem with governing BJP, I understand that totally, but completely ignoring the fact, that the move toward the original name Prayagraj again was wished and planned for a long long time before the BJP and so many different parts of society called for it.

Overall as being the place of the holiest Festivals of Hinduism, the Hindu related original name is widely accepted within such a short amount of time (as different to many other examples like Kaliningrad which still to this day is called Königsberg by the majority of Germans, even on maps and in School material the old name is the contemporary name used, but it is not used in German Wikipedia) because sometimes only 1 or 2 people decide, how certain articles should be named on "their" Wikipedia and most of the time their personal view on a subject overrules any objective argument you could bring up.

Because after all, when both names are not that common in contemporary media, more arguments speak for Prayagraj than for Allahabad, but that cant beat ideology sometimes and anti-Hinduism which is pretty common sadly on almost every Youtube Video I saw they are called dumb cow-worshippers..

I hope on this Wikipedia respect for the official decision of the everywhere accepted government of India, the leading example of most Wikipedias as well as other engines and many media in many languages where the new/old name Prayagraj is being used as well as a sensiblity for millions of Hindus will lead to the renaming of the article to Prayagraj

Thank you

--Tecumseh*1301 (oerlis) 29 aug 2020, 01.13 (CEST)

Prayagraj 2023

I will use English to express myself perfectly.

Speaking of this language. It was a big argument contra renaming the article to Prayagraj, because English Wikipedia hadn't done so.

Well, finally they did, the article is now finally being called Prayagraj, by it's real name.

I have gotten very connected with the topic of renaming the city to it's original name. I needed to let it pause for almost 3 years now.

My style and speech was too demanding, because I felt the topic being treated unfair, I am deeply sorry for the way I wrote.

Still.. The core of the arguments hold the test of time. These being, that here on Frisian Wikipedia, articles about cities, which have been renamed recently, are changed to the new name without the demanding of Frisian sources.

Astana, which was briefly renamed to Nursultan which obviously was a mistake, that it was reversed here on Frisian Wiki

Dnipro

amongst many others, especially Ukrainian cities, which were renamed after Euromaidan - Frisian Wikipedia didn't need Frisian language sources for any of them, they as well as other European Wikipedias just simply went with the new name. I find that alright, because it shows respect not only to the government, but to the people of the country.

So with Prayagraj it should be dealt with the same, especially since English Wikipedia, media, Google and almost all other Wikipedias have gone the same way.

--Tecumseh*1301 (oerlis) 5 mai 2023, 00.15 (CEST)